ясно, спасибо, а 12л/ч это  что ?

а из греческих А6 не попадалось ? 

но с броней на лбу и крыше ? т.е еще -1 тонна если без лба, и пушка со стволом L-55 это еще где то 4-5 тонн ? а странички нет ?

еще раз спасибо.

Отредактировано Wiedzmin (2012-01-22 20:57:16)

т.е бортовые модули башни весят каждый по 680 кг и  лобовые 500, интересно сколько весит доп. броня крыши, пушка с L-55 весит 4,66 ? из всех этих циферь минусуя все "добавки" там ведь реально можно дойти опять до 12 тонн или чуть больше, в 2а5/6 наполнитель меняли ?  есть какая нибудь информация ?

Отредактировано Wiedzmin (2012-01-22 21:32:08)

@Wiedzmin

Масса башни Леопард-2A4(рано) - 16t.
Масса башни ( Броня же башне) - 8.9t

edit -google translator sucks

turret weight Leopard-2A4 (erly -2A3/A4) -16t
only turret armour weight - 8.9t

Отредактировано militarysta (2012-01-23 19:43:33)

@Wiedzmin

literally by the manuals:

"turret without crew, ammunition, "equipment"(??)" - 16t.
"turret armour" (pancerz wieży) - 8.90t.

Possible, but "insert" in armour weight this 8.90t.

BTW: compare size Leo2A4 turret, and it's volume and how "short" is side armour.

Btw - mantlet gun mask weight in Leo2A4  ~630kg

Well:
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btw: this under is not from manuals but dates are the same.

good guestion...

Rather frontal part stell base + composite array, and this 3.3t is "rest" of the turret. But im not sure.
In papers is only "turret armour" -8.9t.

Отредактировано militarysta (2012-01-24 00:37:11)

"samonośne podwozie" - hull with all inside (crew, engine, etc) -it's full equipment
"kadłub" - hull without all inside 

Indeed...

как-то не жирно совсем для такой страны, как Германия

А полный список есть ?

(частично перевёл)
Heer/ Сухопутные войска

Kampfpanzer Leopard 2 –сокращение von 350 auf 225
Schützenpanzer Puma –сокращение  von 410 auf 350 (поступление в войска запланировано начинаня с 2013-го)
Schützenpanzer Marder – списание
GTK Boxer без изменений bei 272
Transportpanzer Fuchs без изменений bei 765
Spähwagen Fennek без изменений 212
Panzerhaubitze 2000 – сокращение von 148 auf 81
Raketenwerfer MARS – сокращение von 55 auf 38
Hubschrauber/вертолёт NH90 – сокращение von 122 auf 80
Unterstützungshubschrauber/вертолёт поддержки Tiger –  сокращение von 80 auf 40
Hubschrauber/вертолёт Bo105 - списание

Luftwaffe/ВВС

Eurofighter – сокращение запланированных 177 auf 140
Tornado – сокращение von 185 auf 85
Transall – сокращение von 80 auf 60
A400M – сокращение von 60 auf 40
Hubschrauber/вертолёт CH-53 – сокращение von 82 auf 64
Global Hawk –  сокращениеvon 6 auf 4
SAATEG MALE – сокращение von 22 auf 16
Patriot – сокращение von 29 auf 14
Mantis/NBS C-RAM без изменений 4

Marine/ВМФ

Seefernaufklärer P-3C Orion без изменений 8
Hubschrauber/вертолёты SeaKing/Sea Lynx от 21 bzw 22 сокращены до нуля, зато 30 морских вертолётов нового типа (ещё не решено каких)
Fregatte F122 – списание
Fregatte F123  без изменений 4
Fregatte F124 без изменений 3
Fregatte F125  без изменений 4
Korvette K130 без изменений 5
Mehrzweckkampfschiff 180 – сокращение  von 8 auf 6
U-Boot U212 без измемений - 6
Minenabwehreinheiten – сокращение von 20 auf 10
Flottendienstboote без изменений 3

[реклама вместо картинки]
Resumme:

1. till 10 marc 1970 began a collaboration between GB and Germnay about Burlinghton - code name for this was "Buckhorse".
2. till october 1970 German gained access to level 1-4 and for some person to 5-6 about Burlinghton - (rest in article in tables) In May 1972 British  handed over Germany, most of the technical information about Burlinghton. In february 1974 Americans (with the consent of the British)  share their experiences whit Germans about Burlinghton.
3. In 1976 Germany broke off cooperation. In the opinion of the British it was a deliberate -Germany granted full access to the Burlington, and broke off cooperation without incurring costs.
4. In second half of 1973 Germans developed Leo-2 turret whit multi layers armour, in 1975 Leo-2AV wa done whit second generation multi layer armour.
5.Germany claimed that 2AV armour is ther own solutions, not only copied Burlinghton.

Well - its all about Leo-2. It seems that Germnas have full acess to Burlinghton and it possible that they just copy it, and after that modified.
Of course I don't risk statment that Leo-2 use Cobhan armour, but what is sure - Germans have in fact almoust full access to Cobham technology, and there are two options:
1) Just copied it -as British said (I doubt in that) and Improved this what they have from British and USA - I'm thinking that Burlinghton form circa 1974 was improved in Germany, so it can by slighty diffrent then "orginal" Burlinghton.
2) work on their own solution, but whit knowleges about Burlinghton in background

Apart from that, in my opinnion we can't say that German "special armour" was whorse then Burlinghton - if Germnas have almoust full access to Burlinghton, and they work on their own solution that is (for me) obvious that they choose just better option, whits better protection.

What is interesting:
There exists a KMW (Leopard 2 producer) patent from 1975 about Schottpanzerung, i.e. the armour which is claimed to be used in Leopard 2 Paul-Werner Krapke (1986) calls the armour "Mehrfachschottung" (literally translated: "multi-bulkhead", but most English sources translate "Schottpanzerung" with spaced armour), while Rolf Hilmes (1984) calls it "Mehrfach-Schottpanzerung unter Verwendung unter Verwendung von Panzerstahl und anderen Materialien" (spaced armour made of armour steel and other materials,
one of this picture, and (from compare)  polish NERA panels. It's looks interesting.
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BTW:
If we took effectiveness of mass for Leopard-2A4 "special armour" like for British Cobhan*,  then the protection provided by  gun manted mask whit weight 630kg will be like:
a) 235-272 mm vs APFSDS
b) 542 mm vs HEAT
Of course its pure speculation (armour in gun mantled mask can be totally difrent then in turret front), but gun mantled mask LOS is ~42cm + backplate (about 40mm thick), and it's just a half of turret front (84cm and 74cm for some angle), so is possible that turret front is close to
~470-540mm vs APFSDS
950-1080mm vs HEAT
?
First, it looks like the impossible, but it interacts with:
a) "nacked" Leopard-2A4 turret mass
b)  effectiveness of mass for Burlinghton/Cobham from circa about ~1978 (and Leo2A4 is 6 years older...)
c) enhance of  the effectiveness of the Soviet atni-tank measures in half of the 1980.
Well I have some serious doubts about this above, but who knows...?

*1,3-1,5 against APFSDS and more than 3 against HEAT warhead (SC)

перевод нужен или как?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pzbrig15/6 … /lightbox/
Лео-2А4 австрийкой армии.